Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 04:30:15 PST From: Ham-Policy Mailing List and Newsgroup Errors-To: Ham-Policy-Errors@UCSD.Edu Reply-To: Ham-Policy@UCSD.Edu Precedence: Bulk Subject: Ham-Policy Digest V94 #148 To: Ham-Policy Ham-Policy Digest Thu, 24 Mar 94 Volume 94 : Issue 148 Today's Topics: (none) Citizen Whiners & the downfall of American Empire Citizen Whiners, etc Morse Whiners and Citizens (2 msgs) Send Replies or notes for publication to: Send subscription requests to: Problems you can't solve otherwise to brian@ucsd.edu. Archives of past issues of the Ham-Policy Digest are available (by FTP only) from UCSD.Edu in directory "mailarchives/ham-policy". We trust that readers are intelligent enough to realize that all text herein consists of personal comments and does not represent the official policies or positions of any party. Your mileage may vary. So there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Mar 94 21:40:19 GMT From: news-mail-gateway@ucsd.edu Subject: (none) To: ham-policy@ucsd.edu subscribe ----- Sam Rennie Member HAM RADIO ka3rnn@plf.uucp Olympia Radio Amateur Club the Philadelphia, PA (WA3BAT) Wireless Internet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 09:39:40 -0500 From: yale.edu!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet@yale.arpa Subject: Citizen Whiners & the downfall of American Empire To: ham-policy@ucsd.edu Rev. Michael P. Deignan writes: >("Test? I don't wanna take no goddamn test! Give me the microphone and let >me talk, damnit!") That's funny...I haven't seen ANYONE here advocating such a thing. You make a lot of good points about bad attitudes in this country, but they have NOTHING to do with the issue of whether or not a Morse TEST is appopriate in the Amateur Radio Service. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 1994 22:52:09 GMT From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!engnews2!rfm@network.ucsd.edu Subject: Citizen Whiners, etc To: ham-policy@ucsd.edu Time to recap the discussion: Rev. Michael P. Deignan erects a straw man: MD>("Test? I don't wanna take no goddamn test! Give me the microphone and let MD>me talk, damnit!") Ed Ellers calls him on it: EE>That's funny...I haven't seen ANYONE here advocating such a thing. The Rev replies with a non sequitur, props up the same tired old straw man, and adds a fresh new one: MD>You don't? No more code test, dumbed-down theory examinations, another MD>person here indicating that the government should but no barriers to MD>entry in obtaining a license (translated: no examinations which require MD>effort). a. Calling for removing the Morse code test is not the same as saying. "I don't wanna take no test, just let me talk!" b. "dumbed down theory examinations": Michael, I challenge you to identify even one poster here who has called for that. Several posters have found flaws in various proposals for increasing the level of comprehension of the material required to pass the the written exams, and several have pointed out that having no class of license which is obtainable without already having significant electronics knowledge would defeat the self-training goal of amateur radio, but I recall no one who has called for making the current written exams easier. c. "another person here indicating that the government should but no barriers to entry in obtaining a license (translated: no examinations which require effort)." I believe here you are referring to me. If so, this is a misrepresentation of my position. I maintain the government should put no *arbitrary* barriers to obtaining a license. By "arbitrary" I mean requirements not directly related to the purposes of the Amateur Radio Service. And yes, I don't believe we should have examinations that require effort. We never have, we shouldn't start now. We have, and should continue to have, examinations that give evidence of competence. Note that the Morse exam has not required "effort", at least not for a long time. Someone who has demonstrated competence in Morse by passing the radiotelegraph exam need not expend any effort in even taking an amateur code exam. This is stronger than my previous statement that a competent individual need not expend any effort beyond taking the exam. You still haven't answered my twice-repeated question about of someone with sufficient competence from previous experience to pass the exams without study: what extra "effort" would you require of such an individual before granting them a license? What benefits would flow from such a requirement? Rich -- Rich McAllister (rfm@eng.sun.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 14:37:20 GMT From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary@network.ucsd.edu Subject: Morse Whiners and Citizens To: ham-policy@ucsd.edu In article <199@ted.win.net> mjsilva@ted.win.net (Michael Silva) writes: >Dan, > >I'll make this short and final, since I'm surprised that no one has >scolded us already for drifting. The fact of citizenship in a >democracy places many more requirements on us than citizenship in >other forms of government. It's perhaps then fortunate that we don't live under a democracy, but instead live in a constitutional republic set up to protect *individual* rights instead of promoting mob whims. (That we select our representatives in a quasi-democratic vote is a side issue, it hasn't always been thus, and that fact does not make the government assume democratic form.) Thomas Jefferson said that a government governs best when it governs least. Sadly that ideal is being lost today under the Statist mentality and bureaucracy that has grown up to smother our Republican ideals. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 18:34:38 GMT From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!news.uakron.edu!malgudi.oar.net!witch!ted!mjsilva@network.ucsd.edu Subject: Morse Whiners and Citizens To: ham-policy@ucsd.edu In article <1994Mar23.143720.20181@ke4zv.atl.ga.us>, Gary Coffman (gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us) writes: >In article <199@ted.win.net> mjsilva@ted.win.net (Michael Silva) writes: >>Dan, >> >>I'll make this short and final, since I'm surprised that no one has >>scolded us already for drifting. The fact of citizenship in a >>democracy places many more requirements on us than citizenship in >>other forms of government. > >It's perhaps then fortunate that we don't live under a democracy, >but instead live in a constitutional republic set up to protect >*individual* rights instead of promoting mob whims. (That we select >our representatives in a quasi-democratic vote is a side issue, it >hasn't always been thus, and that fact does not make the government >assume democratic form.) OK, I'm back in the discussion for one more round. It's true that we are not part of a perfect (i.e. we vote on every decision) democracy, but I don't think I've misused the term. I think it's commonly accepted shorthand used to mean that the citizens affect, and through their voices and actions ultimately control, the laws and policies enacted by the government. It is true that the requirements for voting were once much stricter, because it was felt that the average, semi-educated person was not equipped to place the commonweal above his own self interest (including the mob whims you refer to). Today, they have voter registration drives in mental hospitals. This is not an improvement. >Thomas Jefferson said that a government governs best when it >governs least. Sadly that ideal is being lost today under the >Statist mentality and bureaucracy that has grown up to smother >our Republican ideals. And he was so very right. Despite the great efforts of the Founders, we have let our government(s) do what all governments naturally do: grow and crowd out individual choices and liberties. The only solution I can see is to choke them off at the pocketbook. I don't think we disagree much, if at all, on these things. I am for more self-imposed responsibility on the part of the citizen and *much* less nannying by the goverment. Mike, KK6GM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 14:26:42 GMT From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!emory!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary@network.ucsd.edu To: ham-policy@ucsd.edu References <1994Mar18.211656.18218@cs.brown.edu>, , Reply-To : gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject : Re: Rich has flipped out (was: Morse Whiners) In article jherman@uhunix3.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Jeffrey Herman) writes: >In article rfm@urth.eng.sun.com (Richard McAllister) writes: >>In article <1994Mar18.211656.18218@cs.brown.edu> md@maxcy2.maxcy.brown.edu (Michael P. Deignan) writes: >>>I guess this is what differentiates me from other people. I was brought up >>>to believe that one should work hard, and rewards will follow. >> >>Ah, that explains it. You were apparently raised by Marxists who taught >>you the labor theory of value, which I believe is generally discredited >>even among liberals these days. > >Oh my. Do you mean to say that the work ethic our country was founded upon >is based on Marxist theory? Really? In those countries that subscribe >to Marx-Lenin-Maoist ideals can a diligent worker there achieve anything >close to what a diligent worker here achieves? I guess the millions who have >been slaughtered this century in the name of Marxism just didn't work >hard enough, huh Rich? Don't confuse theory with practice. Marxist labor theory indeed says what Rich says it says, IE all value is based on labor. Communist practice was instead a form of Fascism based on State capitalism. Capitalist theory treats labor as an expense to be minimized, not a desirable end unto itself to be arbitrarily increased. The doctrine the Rev expouses is a religious doctrine based on Calvinist belief in earning salvation. Other mainline Christian beliefs say you can't earn salvation through works, but instead only through grace. The US founders saw rights as inherent entities that you're born with. They were in the main Enlightenment humanists who didn't hold to any particular religous dogma and tried to reason out the basis of the social contract from first principles. They wrote the Constitution and framed our Republican government structure in such a way as to minimize government attempts to infringe those pre-existing rights. Government can't grant you rights, at best they can agree not to *infringe* your pre-existing rights. Whether access to spectrum under the doctrine of common heritage of mankind is a right or not is, of course, subject to debate. I tend to view it as unowned property subject to homesteading with the government attempting to establish the homesteading rules. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 16:43:35 GMT From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!brunix!pstc3!md@network.ucsd.edu To: ham-policy@ucsd.edu References <192@ted.win.net>, <2metpp$emn@paperboy.ids.net>, n Subject : Re: Citizen Whiners & the downfall of American Empire In article , Ed Ellers writes: |> That's funny...I haven't seen ANYONE here advocating such a thing. You don't? No more code test, dumbed-down theory examinations, another person here indicating that the government should but no barriers to entry in obtaining a license (translated: no examinations which require effort). |> You make |> a lot of good points about bad attitudes in this country, but they have |> NOTHING to do with the issue of whether or not a Morse TEST is appopriate in |> the Amateur Radio Service. What makes you think that the amateur radio service is insulated from the ills of American society? Human nature is predictable: if people in society want something for nothing, then people involved/interested in amateur radio are going to want something (translated: their licenses) for nothing as well. 'It's my RIGHT, dammit!' MD -- -- Michael P. Deignan -- RI Center For Political Incorrectness & Environment Ignorance -- 'Have you hugged your chainsaw today?' ------------------------------ End of Ham-Policy Digest V94 #148 ******************************